Talk:Occult

Occult or Esoteric?

I would like to clarify on some of the below listed remarks from people with honest questions but highly subjective views.The word Occult does in a glib definition mean 'Hidden' but the dogma the organizations claiming to be the Temples and Churches of God have often been to discourage ridicule and eradicate this traditions much as the Pharisee's did to Christ. I am a Christian Occultist myself and I think that if anyone wants to change this article they would have to be well acquainted with the tradition in question if you tell me that the Occult is a dark practice, I insist that you give Reference. Much of the Occult has to do with Exorcism and this is in fact a Occult Tradition maintained by most Orthodox Christians. Transubstantiations is another specifically Catholic Practice this is Occult. As is Baptism and a countless many traditions including the reciting of psalms to cure men or the calling down of the presence of the Lord to work a miracle through a man. Is this not Holy Possession much Like that of Voudo the Only real difference is i believe it is a demon posses the Houngan and a Spirit of the Lord the Preacher/Priest. If you still believe that the Occult means a Working against the will and plan of God in a Satanic way then Question away I will answer all Questions. Because I think it is about time the Occult is claimed by its rightful heirs the Monotheists.

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Isn't it that occult carries a much darker emotional backdrop than magic or esoteric does ? From a rational view point there may be incorrectly perceived opposition to Christianity since Christianity has adopted some heathen rituals which follow an occult logic. But at its heart an occult act implies a physical or mental sacrifice to me. The object scarified(crop, animal) or my submission to higher powers is a symbolic sacrifice which constitutes the occult act substitutional psychologically. // sorry if my English style is not the best - I'm no native speaker. 02.09.2004

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I don't see any reason why we shouldn't merge Esoteric knowledge and Occult (and probably esotericism). If these articles need to be differentiated more strongly then we need to write text that does this.

Only issue I imagine occurring is one of interpretation: the 'Occult' often implies (incorrectly, of course) an opposition to Christianity &/or other non-Occult oriented fields of interest..in my opinion, other than this (if it's in the least important) there'd be no issue.

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There does seem to be quite a bit of overlap in the articles.

I usually think of "esoteric" as something that is still somehow within the confines of a more esoteric tradition or religion - like Sufism to Islam, or maybe Gnosticism to Christianity (although perhaps not all Gnostics would fit in this category).

To me, the "occult" involves those traditions or practices that fall outside of a religious category - like Magick, Hermeticism, Alchemy. - RL Barrett 22:23 May 6, 2003 (UTC)

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This whole article (Occult) strikes me as redundant as well. Anything that could be covered in here is done much better in the previously mentioned pages, as well as Magic and New Age. Is there any need to keep it up except the definition?

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Occult is derived from a Latin word meaning hidden. For all the ages of man there have been hidden things, and will continue to be. Occult is not nessecarily associated with magic satan or any other title thereof, it simply is not known. The fact of the matter is there will always be the occult. There may not be government conspiracies, but there can and have been secrets kept for the fact they can be kept.

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Esoteric means 'inner' (as opposed to exoteric or 'outer'), in the sense that it is not the mainstream belief system that is practised by the masses but rather, like one of the above contributors has pointed out, a tradition that is (usually) associated with a larger framework-religion. so yes, Sufism is considered an esoteric stream of 'exoteric' or mainstream Islam, Kabbalists are adherents of an esoteric strain of Judaism, Mystics are sometimes considered esoteric Christians, Tantra is esoteric Buddhism, etc. In almost every form of esotericism, practitioners attempt to attain a direct union with the Divine rather than through a community or clergical figure playing the 'middle man'(although a 'guru' or teacher may aid the process of enlightenment. It is a more intimate version of mass religion and is often associated with the attainment of higher levels of consciousness, spiritual ecstasy, very strong feelings of understanding and interconnectedness and supernatural magic-like abilities. It is often confused with the New Age movement, which has borrowed heavily from esoteric and occult teachings and traditions but is again the more mainstream aspect of 'true' esotericism, which is not concerned with

Occultism is generally not directly associated with such larger established religions, but rather a collection of occult ('hidden') traditions, such as the aforementioned Hermeticism. It is not really 'darker' than esotericism, since neither are out in the open, but it has historically (but wrongly ) been associated with Satanism. There is a strong overlap in many of the core elements of both occultism and esotericism, yet they are still classified as separate in comparative religious studies, as certain traditions (such as Aleister Crowley's Magick) could not be classified as esoteric, since there is no exoteric counterpart of Magick (and no, Harry Potter does not count;)

I can put this section in the main article if you think it fits the standard. Krambambuli (talk) 13:13, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

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The spin usually attributed to Occult is purely from the mind of the perceiver. There is no such thing as black or white magic, but rather the intentions meant while occult practices are being carried out make the darkness or lightness of the magic. Considering most of us have self-motivated gain in our hearts and minds, any practice we carry out to our own benefit is true sin. For example, to use advertising and manipulate a person, without them knowing they are being manipulated is true sin. Features of the psychology, sometimes referred to as the 9 gates, are the methods of manipulation in use today across the whole world. Considering most are unaware of these 9 gates, you are fully controlled by occult means. To name a few, sexuality, greed and security. They can all be tweaked to get you to buy, join, read, fear, conform and believe anything you read. The fear of WMD can even get you to support a war! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.212.139 (talk) 16:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Occult, esoteric and any other forms of either word can safely have their articles merged, perhaps with the use of a TOC. Both terms, much like pagan or paganism, are catchall/umbrella phrases with many, Many subtopics under them.

 Occult and Esoteric are used interchangeably to speak about the exact same topics in many of not Most cases. 

Some of the above posts are wildly inaccurate. The statement: “ Much of the Occult has to do with Exorcism” is a prime example, as are statements and posts speaking of The Occult (again, and umbrella term used to describe thousands of discrete subjects) as a discrete practice or belief system in itself. It is not, nor has it Ever been such in the same way that Paganism or NeoPaganism have never been discrete practices or belief systems. Those words as well, are catchalls or umbrella terms used to make talking about a subject with such an enormous volume of actual discrete practices and beliefs easier by giving people a Very general touchstone phrase.

Occult and Esoteric are Not common nouns. SundarkAdept (talk) 00:47, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Meaning of "occult"

We can discuss about the meaning of occult here rather changing the short description text. I suggested that occult in broader sense is a belief on supernatural and magical entities that fall outside the scope of religion and science. The text should be indicate general term for occult, not only knowledge, but it can mean belief. You're welcome to suggest your idea about its meaning here, which is in broader sense as the intro paragraph direct the meaning. 196.188.241.162 (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Although WP:NOTDICT applies, here are a few related open-license definitions (Webster's, WordNet):

    {Occult sciences}, those sciences of the Middle Ages which
       related to the supposed action or influence of occult
       qualities, or supernatural powers, as alchemy, magic,
       necromancy, and astrology.

      adj : having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to
            the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding;
            "mysterious symbols"; "the mystical style of Blake";
            "occult lore"; "the secret learning of the ancients"
            [syn: {mysterious}, {mystic}, {mystical}, {secret}]
      n : supernatural forces and events and beings collectively; "She
          doesn't believe in the supernatural" [syn: {supernatural}]

So it seems that mysticism and belief in the paranormal, that you already mentioned, apply. It's somewhat historically related to old "science" and by extension to religion because of the supernatural beliefs, but I agree that the short description doesn't need to mention religion. —PaleoNeonate – 21:26, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@PaleoNeonate: Occultism in part (such as in the case of hermetic alchemy and astrology) can be regarded as archaic precursors to science sure. In the case of practices such as Cabalistic High-Magic, witchcraft, theurgy, thaumaturgy, or Rosicrucianism, however, these are based on wholly separate ideas such as the metaphysical sympathy of abstractions instead of any scientific methodology in our materialist or positivist causal universe, while still being deeply rooted or even a crucial portion of mainstream religions in modern time. (In the case of rosicrucianism, Santeria, or Cabala, it is based upon canon beliefs in Catholicism and Judaism).

To say that “supernatural beliefs” is somehow contrary to religion doesn’t really make much sense to me. Religious beliefs quite explicitly are those metaphysical precepts taken to be true that form a framework for answering questions about things we cannot adequately observe or quantify to our own standard of proof or threshold of belief. To say that this does not result in a belief in the supernatural, preternatural, or paranormal in most cases seems peculiar to me. I have posted a similar topic requesting the removal of religion from the long definition.

Luxnir (talk) 02:40, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Religion and science?

Generally, occultism is related to the archaic definition relating to “hidden” things. What I don’t understand is where the qualification in the intro has to include “religion” with science? There are several religions that are identified with and even self-identify with occult practices. Even if we were to restrict occultism to Astronomy or alchemy, hermetic philosophy was very explicitly a monotheistic and/or biocentrist religious system and the zodiac was an obvious Greco-Egyptian pidgin of religious beliefs. To say that it “usually” deviates from religious concepts seems like (though pleasing to the tone) a conclusory statement that is needless and possibly misleading. I mean we have a religion like Wicca, which has been recognized and granted institutional religious privilege by governments across the world for decades, that is exclusively based upon secret oathbound esoteric arts and magic, along with other instances of Neopaganism or reconstructionist movements of pre-Christian religion in general. We don’t even need to get into hermetic alchemy being the precursor to modern chemistry or how things like “hermetically sealed” containers in science bear occult origins. I’m more convinced despite this that deviation from science is certainly a core aspect of occulted knowledge but I am very very uneasy about including religion in there.

I propose that we omit that deviation from “religion”, in the top of the article, is what defines occultism.

Thoughts?

Luxnir (talk) 02:25, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

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Adorno on occultism

It seems adornos definition of occultism as basically anything irrational and just as uninformed and presumptive as his views on things like jazz. Is it even worth including such a biased definition of occultism as literally “irrationality”? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:1100:6026:991C:6C74:D210:46CA (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

A reasonable Definition of Occultism?

Sorry, but is not the the definition of occultism, "as basically anything irrational", a fair and reasonable statement? Then again, might not adding remarks about someone's views on jazz be seen as needless, uninformed and presumptive? For are there not some good reasons to add that the questioning of occultism is ("literally") far from irrationality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.75.96 (talk) 16:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The definition of "irrational" is something that is not part of reason.

The definition of "reason" is the faculty of human beings to know, judge and act accordingly to a given principle.

If the occult is the search of hidden truths, then what the individual perceives to be true or reasonable and act accordingly to said truth, is by definition rational. Even if for some it seems irrational. EurydiceFromHell (talk) 16:37, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

List of Occult

There was a link to the List of Occult groups and organizations in the See Also section of this article. The list was in alphabetical order similar to the list of occult terms. I recall that the list was until 2023 available. Can this list be put back, please? Thank you Justeli (talk) 18:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)