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Iran should be added to the "today part of" subsection. Parts of modern-day Iran (Sistan and Baluchistan Province and Khorasan Province) were in the Mauryan empire.[1]JGallagher83 (talk) 23:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is ironical! You are the one who is unilaterally, disruptively replacing Hinduism with Brahmanism all over the Wiki and when I revert your edits, you say that I am disruptive. PadFoot (talk) 08:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I stick to scholarly sources, you push a Hindutva-narrative. "Hinduism" is not supported by the sources, and even "Brahmanism" is questionable. The long-standing version says "Brahmanism"; see, for example, 17 october 2023, or 23 november 2021. "Hinduism" was first added here, with a source (Sailendra Nath Sen, Ancient Indian History and Civilization) which says "During the Mauryan perid Brahmanism was an important religion." Nath Sen is outright contradicted by Bronkhorst and Omvedt, the other two sources for "Brahmanism." Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!08:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan, if it is the long standing version then I wouldn't revert any further. Also I don't "push" any narrative. You support the section of scholars that consider the term "Hinduism" to encompass the religions in India from the classical period onwards, while I see the scholars that consider "Hinduism" as encompassing the post-synthesis religions as well as Brahmanism and Vedism as being more plausible. If you are going to be making personal attacks on me, and claim that I support some weird stupid propaganda, then I do not know what to think of you anymore. PadFoot (talk) 11:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's even worse: you reverted this edit of mine, from 9 september 2023, edit-summary
correction after checking the sources; they say "Brahmanism," as expected; what we today call "Hinduism" just *started* to emerge at the time of the Mauryan Empire, partly as a Brahmanical response to the influence and popularity of Buddhism
Thapar, Romila (1960). "Aśoka and Buddhism". Past & Present, Nov., 1960, No. 18 (Nov., 1960), pp. 43-51. :
"the Mauryas did not conform to the accepted religion of most royal families of the time, Brahmanism."
Bronkhorst, Johannes (2011). "Candragupta Maurya and his importance for Indian history". Indologica Taurinensia 37 (2011 [2014]), 107-121.
"We know that Aśoka’s personal leanings were toward Buddhism, and tradition testifies to the fact that all the other rulers of the Maurya empire had strong links with Jainism, sometimes Ajivikism, but never with Brahmanism. A persistent tradition maintains that Candragupta was a Jaina."
"The picture that is slowly gaining ground in modern research is that the establishment of the Maurya empire spelt disaster for traditional Brahmanism. Brahmins in earlier days performed rituals at the courts of kings in the Brahmanical heartland. This Brahmanical heartland was conquered by rulers from Pāṭaliputra, who had no respect for Brahmanical rituals and needed no Brahmins at their courts."
"the region of Magadha had not been brahmanized at the time of Candragupta."
"This incorporation into a larger empire, first presumably by the Nandas, then by the Mauryas, took away all the respect and privileges that Brahmins had so far enjoyed, and might have meant the disappearance of Brahmins as a distinct group of people. The reason [110] why this did not happen is that Brahmanism reinvented itself. Deprived of their earlier privileges, Brahmins made an effort to find new ways to make themselves indispensable for rulers, and to gain the respect of others."
"It [118] was because of the Maurya empire that Brahmanism had to reinvent itself. It was because of that empire that Brahmanism transformed itself from a ritual tradition linked to local rulers in a relatively restricted part of India into a socio-political ideology that succeeded in imposing itself on vast parts of South and Southeast Asia, together covering an area larger than the Roman empire ever had."
Historical Geographer Charles Joppen created Mauryan Empire Map : [10]
Greek Historian on Empire extent(regarding Chandragupta) :
Greek historians mentioned the result of Seleucid–Mauryan war where Seleucid Empire's eastern satrapies( Gedrosia,Arachosia, Aria, and Paropamisadae) ceded to Mauryan Empire :
" Seleucus crossed the Indus and waged war with Sandrocottus [Maurya], king of he Indians, who dwelt on the banks of that stream, until they came to an understanding with each other and contracted a marriage relationship. Some of these exploits were performed before the death of Antigonus and some afterward."
"The geographical position of the tribes is as follows: along the Indus are the Paropamisadae, above whom lies the Paropamisus mountain: then, towards the south, the Arachoti: then next, towards the south, the Gedroseni, with the other tribes that occupy the seaboard; and the Indus lies, latitudinally, alongside all these places; and of these places, in part, some that lie along the Indus are held by Indians, although they formerly belonged to the Persians. Alexander [III 'the Great' of Macedon] took these away from the Arians and established settlements of his own, but Seleucus Nicator gave them to Sandrocottus [Chandragupta], upon terms of intermarriage and of receiving in exchange five hundred elephants. "
Greecian historian Pliny also quoted a passage from Megasthanes work about Chandragupta Empire boundaries:
" Most geographers, in fact, do not look upon India as bounded by the river Indus, but add to it the four satrapies of the Gedrose, the Arachotë, the Aria, and the Paropamisadë, the River Cophes thus forming the extreme boundary of India. According to other writers, however, all these territories, are reckoned as belonging to the country of the Aria. "
Megasthenes defined the region that Chandragupta won from Seleucus as likely western side Gedrosia which shares boundaries with the Euphrates River, and eastern side Arachosia shares boundaries with the Indus. The northern frontier boundary formed by Hindukush mountain range:
" India, which is in shape quadrilateral, has its eastern as well as its 'western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Hemôdos from that part of Skythia which is inhabited by those Skythians who are called the Sakai, while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called the Indus. "
" Sandrokottos (Chandragupta) the king of the Indians, India forms the largest of the four parts into which Southern Asia is divided, while the smallest part is that region which is included between the Euphrates and our own sea. The two remaining parts, which are separated from the others by the Euphrates and the Indus, and lie between these rivers... India is bounded on its eastern side, right onwards to the south, by the great ocean; that its northern frontier is formed by the Kaukasos range(Hindukush Range) as far as the junction of that range with Tauros; and that the boundary."
clearly it is the 'standard' extent of the Mauryan Empire.
Each empire specially ancient ones, have multiple debates and extents by different historians, the one universally accepted should be taken into consideration.JingJongPascal (talk) 13:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the standard "textbook" map of the Maurya Empire which is used globally in studies. It is accepted by globally by nearly all the Historians. -says which source? Confirmation-bias WP:OR. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!19:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are right here Jingjong and it should be duty of @Joshua Jonathan to give links to archives.I would say that even if that sourced one isnt written by historians they like Romila Thapar in one of her lecture stated that "Maurya Empire was a empire of metropolis,... and periphal (autonomous) areas".Though,she also doesnt mention which areas. Edasf (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still it shouldn't be mentioned here, as the link of her "citation" redirects to some other book written by some other person, the citations are either made wrrong accidentally or intentionally to increase the no. of historians , this is Wrong Sources and Original Research aswell.
Jingjong the newer map was just wild.It vanished Maurya control from South and incorrectly showed Aria under Mauryas.You better create a newer map I agree with your second one. Edasf (talk) 15:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The map I had added , shows the maximum extent (Seleucid ceded all those territories to Mauryas, as mentioned in many sources and even the one already present in the article). JingJongPascal (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that Aria/Herat was one of the provinces (alongside Arachosia, Gedrosia, and Paropamisadae) ceded by Seleucus to Chandragupta Maurya is often repeated, but Aria (modern Herat) "has been wrongly included in the list of ceded satrapies by some scholars [...] on the basis of wrong assessments of the passage of Strabo [...] and a statement by Pliny." (Raychaudhuri & Mukherjee 1996, p. 594). Seleucus "must [...] have held Aria", and furthermore, his "son Antiochos was active there fifteen years later." (Grainger 2014, p. 109) Edasf (talk) 15:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like this is debated among historians too, many claim Aria was ceded other don't, but the point still remains
The historians in the refrences list , most of them do not mention this "map"
The map given in refrences is actually the one which is the maximum extent (in Archaeology of South Asian, the book on source provided by the hole map)
I don't have any problem with the map itself but the erroneous use of "Romila Thappar" and other historians who don't provide a solid representation of how a Mauryan empire without autonomous region would look like
Romila states "relativly liberated" "eastern Central India and deep South" she doesn't mentions any of the other "holes" in the map
Fine, I am removing historian names.I think I should make a new map since, those maps have errors and arent very detailed. Edasf (talk)10:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think the maps the holes is fine.
All problem I had with was the errenous use of names of historians.
Pinging @JingJongPascal @Joshua Jonathan @Fowler&fowler @PadFoot2008 The first map, which shows the core areas separated by large independent areas, is poorly sourced, as none of the sources, except one, directly states the area that was not controlled; in addition to that, they neither state the area controlled(first two). Let's look at all the sources provided.:-
Stein, Burton (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, p. 74, ISBN 978-1-4443-2351-1, "In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples" Clear case of WP:OR does it even states the areas controlled forget about areas not being controlled.
Dyson, Tim (2018), A Population History of India: From the First Modern People to the Present Day, Oxford University Press, pp. 16–17, ISBN 978-0-19-882905-8, "Magadha power came to extend over the main cities and communication routes of the Ganges basin. Then, under Chandragupta Maurya (c.321–297 bce), and subsequently Ashoka his grandson, Pataliputra became the centre of the loose-knit Mauryan 'Empire' which during Ashoka's reign (c.268–232 bce) briefly had a presence throughout the main urban centres and arteries of the subcontinent, except for the extreme south." Would reason the same as first.
It is of Herman Kulke which shows the clear extent but it is the only one which does not fall in WP:OR.
If we look, two of the four sources are WP: OR and the third, which shows the extent can be cross-questioned by the likes of historians: Vincent Arthur Smith, Joppen, Satish Chandra, R. C. Majumdar, historical geographer Joseph E. Schwartzberg, and many more. Hence the map should be removed and placed in a whole new section of Maximum extent or it should be put second in place.
Also the historians whose names are mentioned except the first two don't even specifically specify anything about "autonomous region" they do mention that some tribes were "relatively" liberated. But don't specify anything about their actual imperial authoritisation and rule.
Hence I find it very vague,
and the third source ,"Archaeology of South Asia" actually shows a map without holes, it does not contain a map with holes or clearly specifies which regions were liberated from imperial rule.
According to me
Either the , names of historians should be removed (except the first two) and the "autonomous regions" should be clearly specified
As Romila Specifies these regions as "Eastern Central India" and "Deep South"
She doesn't mention any other autonomous region except these two.
Authors are reliable but the simple rule of map making is to have the source for each and every area shaded and same for the area not shaded which in this case is not clearly specified. As two of the first authors just give an outlook not mentioning the exact areas. Hence it is WP: OR as just on the basis of outlook and that to not supported by other historians the map has been made to include areas not having imperial authority. Rawn3012 (talk) 08:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sympathetic to these doubts about the "map with holes", and am myself of the opinion (already advocated here) that representing all these regions by 100% empty holes is certainly not mainstream and quite WP:OR, as it is not supported in the literature, even from the sources currently cited in the caption for the "map with holes" [1]. These sources generaly describe "relatively autonomous peoples", with "various levels of independence" from Mauryan power, and various levels of connection, but nothing that would justify total obliteration from the map through 100% empty holes.
Such nuance of the sources could be best be represented by shaded areas, indicating lesser levels of control, as in this map.
Hermann Kulke; Dietmar Rothermund (2004). A History of India (4th ed.). London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-15481-2. 69-70. It is a map with many large areas with line pattern labelled "autonomous and free tribes". My preference would be to reuse the line patterns of the source or shaded areas, rather than create 100% empty holes, to avoid WP:OR and to catter for the fact that the "autonomy" of the regions by definition still implies only "a degree of independence" from central Mauryan power [2].
Stein, Burton (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, p. 74, ISBN 978-1-4443-2351-1, "In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples." => Here the "holes" correspond to "relatively autonomous peoples", a term which does imply too only a degree of independence from central Mauryan power. Here again 100% empty holes are not justified as an illustration.
Ludden, David (2013), India and South Asia: A Short History, Oneworld Publications, pp. 28–29, ISBN 978-1-78074-108-6 Quote: "A creative explosion in all the arts was a most remarkable feature of this ancient transformation, a permanent cultural legacy. Mauryan territory was created in its day by awesome armies and dreadful war, but future generations would cherish its beautiful pillars, inscriptions, coins, sculptures, buildings, ceremonies, and texts, particularly later Buddhist writers." => The quote does not support the map in any way. The book is not accessible online.
Romila Thapar, anthropologists Monica L. Smith and Stanley Jeyaraja Tambiah, archaeologist Robin Coningham are indeed simply authors quoted in the same book, which is referenced 4 times in the same sentence of the caption: Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE – 200 CE, Cambridge University Press, pp. 451–466, ISBN 978-1-316-41898-7 p.452. In this book the text and the map only emphasize the uneven centrality of the Mauryan realm. Visually translating it into 100% empty holes is probably exaggerated.
Dyson, Tim (2018), A Population History of India: From the First Modern People to the Present Day, Oxford University Press, pp. 16–17, ISBN 978-0-19-882905-8, "Magadha power came to extend over the main cities and communication routes of the Ganges basin. Then, under Chandragupta Maurya (c.321–297 bce), and subsequently Ashoka his grandson, Pataliputra became the centre of the loose-knit Mauryan 'Empire' which during Ashoka's reign (c.268–232 bce) briefly had a presence throughout the main urban centres and arteries of the subcontinent, except for the extreme south." This quote leaves aside the final note to the sentence (note 49): "49. The Mauryan Empire incorporated several kingdoms that had arisen outside of the Ganges basin. They included Kamboja and Gandhara in the north-west, Avanti and Cedi in central India, and Asmaka in the south. See Erdosy (1995b: 115)."
In sum, even the sources claimed for the "map with holes" do not support 100% independence from central Mauryan power, which the graphical convention of 100% empty holes in the current map clearly suggests nonetheless. As such, it cannot be said that this "map with holes" is mainstream in any way, and it is quite certainly WP:OR. In order to respect the sources, the empty regions should at best be represented by shaded areas, indicating lesser levels of control.
पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)(talk)08:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though I created this map a long, long time back, I certainly don't advocate for such a representation now. I think that the 'map with holes' is much more accurate than the outdated one, per @Fowler&fowler's arguments (and maps and quotations) which he presented in the RfC a while back. Showing the 'unconquered tribes' of east-central India, and the 'autonomous and free tribes' elsewhere as a part of the Mauryan realm, even in a lighter shade, would be inaccurate if they weren't conquered at all. PadFoot (talk) 09:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PadFoot2008 None of sources mention that tribes were completely independent and even if they majority of scholars use "relatively autonomous" which doesnt mean unconqured. Edasf (talk)09:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have sources that mention that the tribes were conquered in the first place? The sources don't mention these tribes to be a part of the Mauryan territory. PadFoot (talk) 09:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never said they were conquered but Rawn has clearly specified that being relatively autonomous mean they did had a level independence but also had some suzernity for Mauryas.Ashokas inscritions also mention some vassal tribesEdasf (talk)09:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To support your claim, you need sources to explicitly say that they were conquered or were a part of the Mauryan empire, which the none of the sources say. PadFoot (talk) 09:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me rephrase it. None of the sources say that they formed a part of the Mauryan empire. The singular source Rawn refers to also doesn't mention that these "relatively autonomous peoples" were a part of the Mauryan empire. The word "relatively" cannot be simply taken to mean that were under suzerainty of anyone. Kulke & Rothermund say autonomous and free tribes, clearly saying that these were free and autonomous and not a part of the empire. They also refer to the east-central tribes as 'unconquered'. The map by Sinopoli showing the territorial boundaries of the Mauryan empire also supports the given map. PadFoot (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument itself supports removal of given map and that only eastcentral tribes were unconquered then how is others independent.Relatively autonomous means some degree of independence not full this proves that there was atleast some sort of influence.I definitely doesnt dispute that they werent part of Maurya Empire but current map shows them completely unconquered which isnt correct rather map proposed by @पाटलिपुत्र is much better.Since it specifies a reader a much.Think about it? Edasf (talk)10:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't say that these tribes were a part of the Mauryan empire. Autonomous doesn't imply that they were a part of the Mauryan empire, which would be OR, rather autonomous means that the tribes ruled themselves. (Also note that it also says 'free tribes'.) No connection of these to Mauryas is mentioned. The author simply indicates to us the location of autonomous and free tribes in South Asia at that time, and also includes the Cholas, Cheras and Pandyas in this category, who undisputedly were not a part of the Mauryan realm. You also ignored the map by Sinopoli which clearly indicates the Mauryan territories. PadFoot (talk) 10:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless,the extent is mention in only a source and how those territories are given autonomous which were ceded by Seleucus. Edasf (talk)11:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Romila only mentions central eastern India and deep South,
@पाटलिपुत्र I would support the map proposed by you as it is better in graphical terms, also @Edasf It would be very difficult to judge your map without the final version presented. Also continuing on the Pataliputra's argument, only one historian among all the historians cited for the map with holes has clearly stated the boundary. Taking about others, they just mention it in the statement falling into the category of possibility.Rawn3012 (talk) 09:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rawn3012 I am OK with it but the current map shows that Tribes were fully autonomous and unconqured based on some sources.It would be impossible that there will be no influence or suzernity by them for their larger neighbour the Maurya Empire. Edasf (talk)09:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PadFoot2008 I have read the past discussions, and by going through them, I can say that Fowler & Fowler has made some very good arguments, but his arguments are not clearly supported by his cited sources, as none of them state total independence from the Mauryan Empire, but in place of that, they use terms like "relatively autonomous" and "various degrees of independence," which fall into the category of possibility.
The caption to the map says "autonomous," not "independent." "Autonomous" can easily be changed to "relatively autonomous." It's clear from the sources were nothing like modern state-controlled areas with permanent military presence - or police-stations, to make a modern comparison. Compare it to the 19th century Aerican frontier, I guess. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!11:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan Quote:"The Maurya Empire was a loose-knite with large autonomous regions within its limits" (From Ludden,David 2013).This source clearly states Maurya influence or suzernity on these territories. Edasf (talk)11:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replacing current map since there isnt a need for since these were relatively autonomous and didnt separated in accordance to caption. Edasf (talk)12:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i think we should just shade them differently as per source provided by @Edasf , which states that they were autonomous but still under the influence/limits of the imperial authority.
Sorry, but the green map is ugly - a green blob. The 'holes-map' looks better, and has more nuance. Note, by the way, the explanation "conceptualized as"; it does not pretend to be 'exactly' correct. Note also that the caption of the 'solid map' says "maximum extent," not 'areas controlled by the Magadha Empire', or something similar; the two maps present two different pieces of info. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!13:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan@PadFoot2008 @Edasf @JingJongPascal I suggest you guys should see this map(proposed by Pataliputra earlier)made by Avantiputra7. It shows the holes in lighter green colour which is more understandable and keeps all the major and minor details of the earlier two version. Only update it would take is in its legend where it should be mentioned that light green areas shows relatively autonomous areas.
They ceded three satrapies to the Mauryans, of which Gedrosia, the Mauryans never came to rule. "Desert of Gedrosia [...] was left an unclaimed wilderness." — Kosmin (2014). Also per Luten, "The geography of the Mauryan Empire resembled a spider with a small dense body and long spindly legs", thus not including the tribal regions in the Mauryan empire. PadFoot (talk) 15:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Done Please wait for your request to be processed instead of making an another request with the exact same content in a different IP/account. This is considered disruptive. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: Duplicate request. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
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