Talk:Sabra and Shatila massacre

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sabra and Shatila massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: 14 days

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Joey Kurtzman (November 16, 2006). "Wiki Wars". Jewcy.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on 11 dates. [show]

September 16, 2004, September 16, 2005, September 16, 2006, September 16, 2007, September 16, 2008, September 16, 2009, September 16, 2010, September 16, 2012, September 16, 2016, September 16, 2018, and September 16, 2022

Crime and Criminal Biography: Organized crime Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Organized crime task force (assessed as Low-importance).

Death Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disaster management Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Law Low‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Law Enforcement Low‑importance

	Law portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Law Enforcement. Please Join, Create, and Assess.Law EnforcementWikipedia:WikiProject Law EnforcementTemplate:WikiProject Law EnforcementLaw enforcement articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Lebanon Low‑importance

	Lebanon portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lebanon-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Middle East / Cold War C‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

C

This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Cold War task force (c. 1945 – c. 1989)

Palestine High‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Sociology Low‑importance

	Society portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4	Archive 5	Archive 6

This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by .

Restructuring

The subsections U.N. condemnation, MacBride commission and Israeli Kahan commission are listed under the section "Postwar testimonies by Lebanese Forces operatives" despite having nothing (or very little) to do with the testimonies. I propose to restructure the article to move the postwar testimony paragraph to a subsection of "Role of various parties" and to rename the section about the UN condemnation and the two mentioned commissions to something along the gist of "International Response and Investigations".

Sharon libel suit

I think it is worth mentioning that Sharon pursued a similar suit against Time in an Israeli court, which was settled by both parties with compensation which was reported as substantial ("Neither party would disclose the amount of the payment, but the Israeli radio reported that the figure was substantial" - https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/23/nyregion/time-magazine-and-sharon-settle-the-libel-suit-he-filed-in-israel.html).

typo: Germanos' report says twenty children

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

You could also add information from Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout's book but it's not necessary:

named, missing (persumed dead): "32 females (women and young girls)" p. 292
female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.292)
for children she says "In List 3, age is only sometimes mentioned: for 585 victims out of a total of 906. Of these, children account for 108 (18.46%)." (p. 292)

List 3 are those named and confirmed dead.

Why it should be changed:

typo. The linked source says twenty but an editor must've misread tweleve.

References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.291 not p. 292). sorry. "in List 3, they totalled 201 (22.18%)."

Bowad91017 (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

here is the source (it's currently linked in the article), showing they are 20 not 12 kids in the report: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@thetechie@enwiki what do you mean? The current version of the article says 12 but links a source that says 20 children.

here is the source, that the article is currently using: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 07:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will let someone else re-open if they wish. Do not re-open the request. Archive.org usually isn't reliable. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@thetechie@enwik ah I see the confusion.

archive.org is not the source, the source is the book: Israel's lebanon war by Ze'Ev Schiff.The book is available online on archive.org for free, namely page 282. (archive.org is never a source, it's an archive of documents. the archived document can be reliable or not)
This book is already being used in this section of the article to reference this specific claim. An editor just made a mistake. The phrase reads "includes fifteen women and twenty children" but they misread it and wrote 12 in the wikipedia article.
Regarding the other details, they are not necessary. They are from "Sabra and Shatila: September 1982" by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout if anyone wants to improve the next bullet point.

Please reopen the request, so someone more familiar can handle it. Thanks. Bowad91017 (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTechie re-pinging since the first ping was a typo, sorry Bowad91017 (talk) 20:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done ✅ IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Death toll changes

I changed the estimated death toll from 700 minimum to 1,300, as the 700 number is from Israeli state estimates, not an RS. Per the RS cited in the 'Number of victims' section of this article, 1,300 is the lowest estimate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the due diligence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

I undid this revision by @TRCRF22 because I believe this event is frequently characterized by the majority of sources as a massacre but not as a “genocidal massacre”. There are accusations of genocide, but it is not the preponderance of reliable sources. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reinstating Spelling Alternate

I propose to reinstate the following edit to the lede:

(also known as the Sabra and Chatila massacre)^[1]^[2]

Six years ago, I posted to this Talk page the proposed edit. After waiting for feedback, I made the edit. In January 2023, a user made a number of edits to the lede, including removal of the alternate spelling. Feedback is welcome.Te Karere (talk) Te Karere (talk) 03:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a footnote for this. And Sabra and Chatila massacre already exists as a redirect to this article. That seems fine to me. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ International Commission (1983). "Israel in Lebanon: Report of the International Commission to Enquire into Reported Violations of International Law by Israel during Its Invasion of the Lebanon". Journal of Palestine Studies. 12 (3): 117–133. doi:10.2307/2536156. Retrieved 14 October 2018.
^ Sassòli, Marcus; Bouvier, Antoine; Quintin, Anne. "ICRC/Lebanon, Sabra and Chatila". How Does Law Protect in War. International Committee of the Red Cross. Retrieved 14 October 2018.

[JPS1983-1] International Commission (1983). "Israel in Lebanon: Report of the International Commission to Enquire into Reported Violations of International Law by Israel during Its Invasion of the Lebanon". Journal of Palestine Studies. 12 (3): 117–133. doi:10.2307/2536156. Retrieved 14 October 2018.

[Sassòli-et-al-2] Sassòli, Marcus; Bouvier, Antoine; Quintin, Anne. "ICRC/Lebanon, Sabra and Chatila". How Does Law Protect in War. International Committee of the Red Cross. Retrieved 14 October 2018.

[1]

[2]